Shannon Beard : Rock On part 2!

Friend of the POD, Shannon Beard, is back to  share her journey of caring for her mother with dementia, detailing the challenges faced in medical care & the importance of guardianship. 

She discusses the changes that occurred after her mother's placement in a care facility, the struggles with communication and care, and the eventual need for end-of-life decisions.  Shannon also reflects on her coping mechanisms after her mother's passing and offers valuable advice for others in similar situations.

Great Conversation with so much useful info!

Thanks For Listening!
Joanna Anderson & Sue Nicolaidis

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Transcript

speaker-0 (00:00)
Okay. Hi Joanna.

speaker-1 (00:03)
Bye Sue!

speaker-0 (00:05)
How are you?

speaker-1 (00:06)
How are you?

speaker-0 (00:07)
This episode is the interview with Shannon Beard. And if you guys remember, she was on June of 2024 and she was sharing her caregiver journey with us, just like, you know, all of our guests. And ⁓ I guess we should have had trigger warning.

speaker-1 (00:31)
Yeah, I mean, yeah, for sure.

speaker-0 (00:36)
Because Shannon joined us to ⁓ share that her mom has passed away, but she also wanted to the hardships that they dealt with at the end of her caregiving. She goes into crazy detail and she's lovely to listen to. Her dad was left out of care decisions and the government took over. And it's a real cautionary tale.

speaker-1 (01:04)
Yeah, I'll just say Shannon is just like us. Her parents were just like us. Her journey was just like ours. But it took a weird turn that we had never heard about. And honestly, I'm still, my flabbers are gusted, honestly, about it.

speaker-0 (01:21)
It was really shocking and she had let us know what was going on. I am when they were dealing with some, ⁓ the changes in her mom, like changing facilities and all that stuff. But when we got this whole on the interview, it was shocking.

speaker-1 (01:42)
Yeah, we're not obviously sharing this to like, ⁓ scary you or anything. This is all for educational purposes. And I mean, Shannon has really been through it. So I'm appreciative that she can share her story with us and, and let us all know like, what is possible in this world we live in. ⁓

speaker-0 (02:01)
And like you said, thank you Shannon so much sharing this with us and letting us share it with our listeners because it's nothing we ever heard of before. And Shannon's so awesome. like sweetened her attitude is like so inspiring. You could just tell that she was in it, but still taking care of her kids, husband or fiance rather.

her dad and with like a smile on her face. She's a unicorn of a person.

speaker-1 (02:37)
She is. She's like a saint. We don't deserve her.

speaker-0 (02:40)
So everybody, please listen to our second episode with Shannon Deer.

You Forgot (02:48)
Today's episode is sponsored by Hugs from Harrison. Hugs from Harrison is a North Texas program that pairs young adult mentors with children facing life's challenges. Through intentional relationships and consistent support, mentors help children feel seen and accepted. Hugs from Harrison was founded with one heartfelt purpose, to enable children to reach their full potential. This happens when we inspire hope and build meaningful connections.

To learn more about becoming a mentor, volunteering, and fundraising events, please visit hugsfromharrison.com. Hugs from Harrison, spreading acceptance one hug at a time.

Jojo (03:30)
Hey Shannon, welcome back to podcast. We are so grateful that you're here again. So when you were here with us last time, you shared a deeply personal look at caring for your mom as she navigated dementia. And so for the listeners who may have missed that conversation or for those who could use a refresher, could you just give us a brief overview of your journey up to that point?

Shannon (03:31)
Hello. Thank you.

Sure. At that point, my mom was in care. She had been in care for about five months, I think. I felt like I was kind of on the fence. You had asked me a question at some point about how I felt like her care was going. And I was like, I mean, it was better in the beginning. The reality is the care wasn't great at that point. as far as just where we were on the podcast, she was in care.

to emergency place my mom because my dad had gone to the doctor with a pulled muscle in his calf, which turned out to be a blood clot in his calf that had, they thought they could get it with the angioplasty and then they ended up having to open him up and he was in the hospital for days and days and then it got infected. It was a whole thing with my dad. that was, at that point, my mom was at home. So she was at home.

My dad was her full-time caregiver, and then we had three extra hired nurses. I was one of them, so we're not nurses, caregivers, who relieved my dad during the day. But when my dad went down, we had to find a home for mom quickly. Up to that point, I had been secretly researching facilities because I knew

I think I covered this in the podcast that my parents had been together since fourth grade. And I knew my dad wasn't gonna wanna let go of her willingly. So I had to be the legs on the ground, behind the scenes, getting things kinda just ready because I knew it was gonna be an emergency placement, emergency situation, or my dad wasn't gonna wanna do it, just on his own. So that's kind of the background on where we were. My mom, we did cover this in the...

Jojo (05:30)
Yeah, that was so smart of you.

Shannon (05:37)
The last podcast, my mom really struggled with her anxiety, which turns into the next chapter of the story. her anxiety was through the roof, trying all the meds, not working, all the things. That's kind of where we left off with the previous podcast.

Jojo (05:54)
Yes, and so since then, since we last spoke, there have been some dramatic and heartbreaking changes for your family that are almost unspeakable. Can you walk us through what unfolded after we spoke?

Shannon (06:02)
Yes, yes, yes.

Yes, and again, I jotted this down on my notes, but I don't know what all I can share. So we may have to edit some of this out because it is very dramatic. So there, since when my mom went into care was last January, she went into care and

in January and again I didn't cover this in the last podcast because it was still we were working out kinks and didn't know what to expect and didn't know what kind of expectations I should have from care. Now I know, now I know. It was January or February that my daughter, my second daughter McKay who was at the time working at the Alzheimer's Association, she went for a visit

and just kind of brushed my mom's hair back in a huge, I have a picture of it, a huge green bruise on her forehead just from moving her hair. It was green, so it had been there a while. Hair was so slimy from not showering, so I don't know. That was not okay. It was very startling for my daughter. No one knew what happened. That's as far as we got.

And I know they're going to have bruises and I know this is going to happen, but this was the sort of thing that was immediately after she was placed in care that we were like, no answers. And I, as the daughter, I have some rights, but really it's my dad. It's on my dad. So my dad was up there having to fight the battles. My dad was the one, and he's very gentle and didn't want to step on any toes. And I do want to step on toes. I do want to go in there and light them up. And I did.

Jojo (07:45)
Yes.

Shannon (07:49)
Now, there were a couple times I went in there and lit them up and they didn't necessarily deserve it because they were like, we have told your dad. Okay, that bruise, we kind of just were like, okay, maybe she tripped over her bed skirt. Maybe she, so we removed the bed skirt. Maybe she, my dad put cameras in her room. Like it was the whole thing. We kind of were like, okay, maybe this is a one-off. Well, then it was, I wrote it down, I think in March.

I don't remember exactly, April ⁓ fell backward, backward in the hall, split open the back of her head, six staples. Now the process for that was that they sent her in an ambulance alone to the ER, bleeding. In the middle of the night too, this was also in the middle of the night.

Jojo (08:24)
Okay.

⁓ my god.

Shannon (08:41)
and called my dad, but did not continue down the list of phone calls. So I never got a phone call. Called my dad. No, no. They sent her alone in the ambulance, which is the most heartbreaking part of it. And when I confronted them on it and I lit them up, they said that that's all they're legally bound to do. So I said, okay, so we're paying $9,000 a month to do the bare minimum.

Jojo (08:47)
and they didn't send a caregiver with her.

Shannon (09:08)
The minimum, like we made the one phone call, because that's all we had to do. We made the one phone call, we sent her in the ambulance because she was bleeding. That little bloody spot in the hall sat there for a week at the facility for my dad to just look at it. Yes, it was bad. It was really bad. We were still in the process of like taking care of my dad. We couldn't really move my mom yet because we were taking care of my dad. My dad was...

Jojo (09:09)
not accept.

Shannon (09:32)
That was part of reason his wind was popping up and because he was up there trying to fight these battles with for my mom and he shouldn't have been up there and he lives in Princeton and was driving to Plano, which is a 40 minute drive on a good day and trying to get there and fight these battles for her didn't have the energy. He was kind of like turning gray, like his blood wasn't good. Like it was just a whole disaster. So I just had to make the decision that we were going to.

just move mom later because we couldn't deal with all of that. somebody was just gonna have to be up there a lot, watch the cameras a lot and just.

Hope it didn't ever happen again. So those were the two, two incidences when she went and got the staples, she came back and just wasn't rallying, wasn't rallying, wasn't rallying, of course. Well, so we took, sent her back to the ER. I went with her this time, went back to the ER and she, they were like, we can't find anything. We can't, can't find anything, can't find anything. Turns out she had COVID. They didn't even check for that. So it's just, it,

Jojo (10:37)
my God.

Shannon (10:40)
It's just the care that your loved one gets when they're in that stage of dementia is just not, it's not good. It's not good no matter where you are, no matter. It's just like they're an overlooked, like they're terminal, they're dying. like they don't really deserve the extra. ⁓ It's so sad. So.

Jojo (10:58)
It's so sad.

Shannon (11:01)
After the dust settled on that whole situation, then I was under the impression, okay, let's move mom. My dad then was not wanting to move her. So it's my dad's decision. So she stayed and she stayed and I still think she shouldn't have stayed. I mean, I still do.

I don't know how much of this story, like, I just keep going or do I wait for you to prompt me with questions, but okay, okay.

Jojo (11:29)
No, no, no, I want you to keep going because

you have a very important part of your story that Sue and I had never heard about and we've heard a lot of stories.

Shannon (11:37)
Yes. Okay.

So, so then let's fast forward to, well, she was in care. We started in January of 24. So this story is in hindsight, actually, amazingly fast. So, but it didn't feel like that. All of 24 did not feel fast. So let's fast forward. She, at some point,

Jojo (11:54)
Yes.

Shannon (12:08)
want to say it was December of 24. December of 24 got sent back to the ER alone in an ambulance for aggression. Again, remember even from day one when we had her in care, it was the meds, we couldn't get the meds right, the aggression, the anxiety, she didn't want to be touched, they were having to, you know, you have to shower. Like I don't know the balance, like I said, we were

in the process of learning all of that. Anyway, she was sent to the ER for aggression. The ER kept her, admitted her. She was in the hospital for a couple of days. And then she was deemed too much to handle, I guess. mean, hospitals aren't equipped for memory care patients who are aggressive. And so they...

Jojo (12:52)
Correct.

Shannon (12:55)
said she needed to go to geriatric psych, a geriatric psych facility. And they sent her to a facility in Denton. So she's in Collin County in the hospital. Her memory care facility is in Collin County. My dad lives in Collin County. Now they want to send her to Denton County. So they had to get a court order.

to send her to Mayhill, which I don't know if I'm supposed to say the names or not, but Mayhill is the name of the geriatric psych facility in Denton. So then what we learned, this is the big moment, what we learned is my dad's power of attorney meant nothing. Nothing at that point. Okay.

Jojo (13:35)
Okay, tell us more about that because we've been

preaching power of attorney. Like it's important.

Shannon (13:40)
Okay,

so I'm not, I maybe need an attorney to correct me, but this is gonna get, I'm gonna get close. So, and a power of attorney in that situation doesn't mean anything. Guardianship is what my dad needed to have. And guardianship, I guess, would mean my dad could have said, no, she's not going. No, she's not going, but they,

He had no voice. They sent her because she was deemed, what's the word? She can't make decisions on her own. So the power of attorney meant he didn't get to make any more decisions. It's kind of like, think about children. So if you have a child and the government decides that you are abusive, they can come in and take your child. You don't get to have a voice.

Jojo (14:25)
Okay.

Shannon (14:27)
anymore.

Jojo (14:27)
And even though he was married to her, that doesn't automatically mean that you're a guardian. Like a guardianship is then like a legal document. Okay. Okay.

Shannon (14:37)
Like think Britney Spears. ⁓

Her, that whole controversy was that they went to court and got guardianship of her, which meant she was deemed not able to make decisions for herself. So my dad didn't get to have a voice at all. They weren't even talking to him. They weren't even telling him. Like he didn't even know where she was going. He didn't know how long she was gonna be there. They didn't, he didn't know really why.

Jojo (14:50)
Okay.

Shannon (15:03)
what the plan was, they were just trying medication. I don't know what they were doing at Mayhill with her. We don't know. And he still doesn't know. Still doesn't know because he didn't have guardianship. So this is a big detail. So I immediately hit the ground running. I have a lot of attorney friends. I was like, let's start this process. It takes months. Months to get a guardianship. Yes, months.

Jojo (15:24)
my god.

You Forgot (15:26)
to get a guardianship, okay.

Shannon (15:29)
And it's basically like you have to go through this whole court process and Paula, my mom, has to have, she needs a guardian because she's unable to do this for herself. Well, obviously, duh, that's what we thought power of attorney was good for, but it's not in this situation, it meant nothing. So they basically, the government swooped in and took my mom.

Jojo (15:46)
Okay.

as insane.

Shannon (15:51)
So

they took her and put her in a psych facility. She's, again, nonverbal. Nonverbal. She's very aggressive. She's very unaware and fearful and scared. So she's in a new facility that they transported her, again, alone, transported her from Collin County to Denton County with no words to my dad or me.

No words, like just basically like we're taking her, this is what she needs. Which we didn't disagree that she maybe needed a geriatric psych facility because the memory care facility just wasn't, they weren't nailing the medication. ⁓ But there's one in McKinney and apparently they didn't have any beds. So that's why they needed the court order to transfer her out of county. So that was the big.

Jojo (16:30)
Yeah.

Shannon (16:43)
why they had the court order, why they decided to go that route, why it felt so aggressive to us. But that is the normal procedure. So if this is ever gonna happen in any of your listeners' lives and they need a geriatric psych and it is an emergency placement like this and they don't have a bed in your county, you're no one. They will.

Jojo (17:08)
You're knowin'.

Shannon (17:09)
do what they have to do and it makes sense on a legal level but it doesn't make sense on an emotional relational level. Like my mom's still my mom. She's still my dad's wife. Like you're just whisking her away because she was aggressive at her facility.

Jojo (17:15)
Not at all. Right?

And would they have needed a court order to move her to the McKinney location? Okay.

Shannon (17:27)
I don't think so. I don't think

they would have. I, you know, again, I will be in there fighting. My dad did not. And I'm in a place where I can't get behind me, dad. I can't do that. Even though sometimes I wanted to, I still kind of do. The procedure, felt like I was like, I feel like we could fight for a bad McKinney. I feel like we could fight for it, but.

Jojo (17:39)
Exactly.

Shannon (17:51)
then it was already done. It was basically presented to my dad like we already did this. We already did it. Yes, yes.

Jojo (17:55)
We already did it. You have no choice in this. So

how long did she stay in Mayhill?

Shannon (18:01)
So she was there two weeks. We've since learned again. There was a hearing. That's also part of the procedure when you have a court order. Then they have a hearing, and it was via Zoom. So again, not me. It was my dad. So I'm getting all my information from my dad, which ⁓ is also tricky. That's another chapter.

Jojo (18:15)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Shannon (18:25)
So, but he doesn't really even know the questions to ask. He doesn't know like, and then this is my mom's attorney. And again, he's not guardian, he's power of attorney. So they weren't really telling him anything because they don't really know anything. This is an attorney that stepped in, met with my mom who's nonverbal, can't even sit there. Like I don't, and he's trying to explain to my dad that he doesn't know either. So I think he basically went through like, this is typically what happens, da da da da.

Jojo (18:35)
Yeah.

Shannon (18:53)
based on my mom's history, I don't know. But my mom ended up, she was there for two weeks, no idea what happened in there, no idea how they even handle, like it's geriatric psych, it's not memory care psych, it's not like, they have all the, like think every geriatric psych situation, they probably have it in there. So they had visitation once a week for an hour.

Jojo (19:14)
And were you allowed to visit?

Shannon (19:19)
So my dad only was able to see her once a week for an hour. And this is a man, again, they've been together since fourth grade. He saw her every single day. Yeah, it was, and door to door from my dad's house to the Denton facility, I think I mapped it 20 miles, which sounds nothing to most of the world, but this is highway 380, 20 miles. 20 miles on highway 380. So from one end to the other end, through Princeton.

Jojo (19:38)
Nightmare. Nightmare. No. That's like two hours.

Shannon (19:46)
So yeah, through Prosper, through, yes, all of that. So it was, you know, an hour and a half to get those 20 miles for my dad, which of course he's willing to do, but you know, it was just very sterile, very like out of the, like think jail, like that kind of visitation. Like you're in a lunchroom, cafeteria situation, echoey, my mom doesn't know where she is.

Jojo (20:03)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon (20:11)
didn't even know who he was at this point, but it was a nightmare. So, okay, so now we're, we are end of December now, so Christmas time. My dad, when is she gonna get out? What are we, no answers, no answers, no answers. They called him December 23rd, Christmas Eve Eve, and said we are releasing her tomorrow. Yeah, so.

My dad called her memory care facility and said, they're releasing her tomorrow, so I'll be bringing her back tomorrow. They said she's not welcome here.

Jojo (20:42)
my God.

Shannon (20:42)
This is called dumping and it's illegal. So calling out my mom's facility again that they dumped my mom. So this is a, it's a term that's unofficial in the memory care world and it is illegal. basically my mom's facility decided one day they can't handle her and the only option they have is to send her to the ER and let the ER doctor,

Jojo (20:45)
Okay.

Shannon (21:10)
then admit her for the two days. Again, this is all legal, I've learned this. This is all just normal legal procedure. Admitted her for two days, had a doctor then get the court order, her to Mayhill. Now she's, the hospital's problem, Mayhill's problem. Okay, meanwhile, also my dad's still paying for a memory care facility. Mm-hmm, yes. So, yes, so my mom's not there for basically a month. My mom's not there, my dad's still paying, even though they've already dumped her.

Jojo (21:30)
God.

You Forgot (21:31)
Yeah.

Shannon (21:39)
But my dad doesn't know it. He thinks when she gets out of Mayhill, she's going to go back. And they said, she's not welcome.

Jojo (21:45)
technically they are supposed to take her back.

Shannon (21:51)
There was a loophole somewhere. I can't remember what they claimed. I don't remember. But there was a loophole. And of course, my dad's not going to fight it. So my dad had no choice. He brought her home. She had to come to his house. He had no choice. All my kids were here for Christmas. So they all got to see her in a comfortable situation. So that we're thankful for. And actually, she came home.

Great, great, great. Like, I had never seen her anxiety so, like she was so mellow and so calm. But.

Jojo (22:15)
was gonna ask, okay.

Shannon (22:26)
Also, again, it's Christmas. So they released my mom. My dad has not been able to have any communication with Mayhill. They told him when they released her and the paperwork said that they had had her on four medications and she was doing great on these four. So we went to the pharmacy to pick up these four medications and there were only two. They had only sent two. So now he's got to figure out how to get a hold of Mayhill, can't.

Christmas. The doctor that prescribed these medications is buried 17 layers in and again it's Christmas and he's no one. He's her husband. He's no one at this point. So he was like I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. Do I assume she doesn't need these other two? Do I still fight? Do I have the pharmacy? I said yes on all of the above. Yes you fight the mayhill, you fight the pharmacy, you

Jojo (23:08)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon (23:22)
Yes, let me let me loose. But but he ended up just keeping her on the two and she stayed at home for a few days, maybe a week. I don't remember through Christmas, which was lovely to have her home for Christmas. It really was. And she was calm and enjoyable and responsive. And it was a beautiful moment with her and all my kids. They were all home, which

is also just amazing. Yeah, so we had that amazing Christmas and then my dad, because she now, she has this aggression on her record and memory care facilities won't take her.

Jojo (23:49)
Right, it's a gift.

Yep, scarlet letter.

Shannon (24:03)
Yeah,

yes. So my dad put her in a group home in Princeton that was two miles, three miles from his house. And that was a very big deal to him for her to be that close. This was not a memory care facility. This was a group home with like one caregiver and.

Jojo (24:07)
Okay.

Shannon (24:23)
other residents. It wasn't, I mean it was comfortable. My dad enjoyed being there. But she had her own bedroom. She did share a bathroom, but it doesn't matter. My mom's completely unaware. But I think this is all, this whole process is what I think killed my mom. So she's at the new facility and I

Jojo (24:26)
Okay.

She had her own bedroom.

Shannon (24:50)
So now we're in the new year, this is 25 now. My birthday is February 4th and on my birthday I was gonna meet my dad at my mom's group home on my birthday. It was just a regular scheduled visit anyway and it was my birthday and whatever.

It was just a normal day and I walked into my mom's room and she was completely unresponsive. laying in her, like she's kind of sitting up in her bed. So they had her kind of up, but she was gray and shallow breathing. And I, when I pulled her eyes back, nothing, there was nothing there. And I was like, how long has she been like this?

Jojo (25:14)
Break. Pass out.

What?

Yes.

Shannon (25:35)
I'm like, why is there no buzzing? Why is there like, so apparently, again, I don't know because I have to take a back seat to my dad's authority and I don't know how this happened. And I don't know the normal, I think there was just always one caregiver and I think they stayed for a couple of days, slept there, I don't know. But apparently, it was a switch.

Jojo (25:38)
Right.

Yeah.

Shannon (26:00)
a caregiver switch and the new caregiver that came in that morning was like freaking out. Like she should not be this way. And I was freaking out and my dad started freaking out and I was like, dad, what, like, I think it must've just been a frog in a pot of boiling water for my dad and the other care. I don't know, but we, I'm calling 911. The ambulance is there, the precious paramedics who came.

Jojo (26:08)
Yes.

Shannon (26:30)
They were young and I think they knew what was happening. And of course, I'm like, it could just be pneumonia. She might just need antibiotics and rally. I don't know. I don't know. But we can't just let her die here. And because they were like, do you want us to take her? Again, Sue, you said this on one of your podcasts, like you go to the hospital to get better. So they were like, do you want us to take her? And I'm like,

I'm buzzing around because I'm like, she has a DNR. Like if you take her in the ambulance and she codes, like she has a DNR. They were like, where is it? It's not on file.

It's not on file at the group home. So again, there's all these little details that really, really matter that were overlooked in this process. now I'm three miles from my dad's house. I basically jump in the car, run to my dad's house, print out the DNR, try to race back over there before they load her up and resuscitate her on the way to the hospital.

Jojo (27:13)
Yeah.

Right.

Shannon (27:28)
I didn't make it, so I have the DNR. racing to the hospital in McKinney with the DNR. They are pulling her, I mean, I'm racing and they are like putting, okay.

Jojo (27:37)
Wait, pause just for a second.

explain to the listeners, you actually have to have the DNR on paper. You can't show it on your phone, not on the phone.

Shannon (27:44)
on paper, in your hand, in your hand, nope.

I mean, possibly if you got the right paramedic, they would be like, I'll take that. But they have to have it in the ambulance with them too, if they let someone code. And they just show up at the hospital like, they have to have it also. Yes, paperwork, it's yes. And so I am like, how did?

You Forgot (28:01)
Yeah.

Jojo (28:01)
Yeah.

So this is like a good point. Another thing I didn't know.

Shannon (28:11)
They admit my mom in this group home without having all this on file. Okay, so I have the DNR in my hand. I'm sprinting, like racing again down 380 all the way to McKinney. I meet the ambulance as they're wheeling her back. Here's her DNR, shoving it in their hands. Of course they wouldn't take it. I had to go check in, do all the things. It was just a nightmare. So we get her all in the ER and

Jojo (28:15)
Right, right.

Shannon (28:37)
They start her on the liquids in the IV and the doctor comes in and is basically like, yes, she has pneumonia. Yes, yes, all the things. We're going to start her on the antibiotics. She'll either rally in the next 24 hours or she won't.

And if she doesn't, I think you guys need to prepare yourself that she's not going to. And I...

Jojo (28:58)
And what did

that feel like in that moment when he said that? Did you already know or?

Shannon (29:03)
I think I knew once I kind of looked at her eyes, that I think I knew at that point, but I also kind of was like, there's a chance, but also she's rallied a few times. Like she's had COVID at least twice since she got real bad and rallied. She had the staples and rallied. physically she's good, but.

Jojo (29:20)
Yeah.

Like chicks got

nine lives.

Shannon (29:27)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The girl is, she was so strong and just, I don't know. But also never worked out in day in her life. ⁓

Jojo (29:35)
Shut up.

Shannon (29:39)
Go non-worker outers.

But she didn't. so then they moved her up to the, it has a term, but it's basically like the long, dying with long things, room, ward, respiratory, something, ICU, some, I don't know, but it's a lot of hospice and a lot of sadness up there. But, but.

Jojo (29:52)
Okay.

Shannon (30:02)
these are nurses and the air in the hall is correct. Like it's all correct. which I actually appreciated that it was a whole wing of similar feelings. There's not a lot of like, happy birthday next door, know, like not a lot of flowers. can't bring, there's not a lot of things you can bring in. And a lot of hospice and the hospice nurses.

Jojo (30:19)
Yeah.

Shannon (30:28)
are guys have said it angels on earth they are I mean we had we had chaplains who came in two of the three of them were fantastic

Jojo (30:31)
Yep. Yep.

You Forgot (30:40)
What was the...

Jojo (30:40)
Ooh, wait, tell us about the one that wasn't.

Shannon (30:42)
I

actually had to like make a phone call about that one, I think it was, she had the best intentions, but like a lot too much touching on my dad and like too much, too much holding and touching and knowing and forcing us to pray and we were like, no, no. ⁓

You Forgot (30:47)
Get

Jojo (31:02)
No.

Shannon (31:07)
which my mom I'm sure was loving, forcing us to pray. I'm sure she was loving that. But I don't know, the hospice situation was amazing. this was one of my questions on my last podcast session was like, what does the dying process look like? Now I know, now I know, now I know. Sure, I can. Okay, so.

You Forgot (31:09)
I

Jojo (31:10)
she was loving it. Yeah.

Now you know. Do you want to talk about it?

Shannon (31:29)
It was my birthday when she was admitted, so February 4th, and then the process was quickly determined. She needed to be moved and placed on hospice. And we had the option of bringing her home. No one wanted that. It just, wasn't right for us. And it's right for some people's, whatever, really, whatever. It's really at that point about you, not them. They don't know.

Jojo (31:48)
Yep. Yep.

Shannon (31:51)
There's not anything better or worse about any of those decisions. It just is what works best for you. And the hospital definitely worked better for us. So we just camped out all day. My dad stayed there all night, but we just stayed all day. From that day, they just kind of like, it's a beautiful process. don't know, I've heard people say this and I was like, is it beautiful?

Jojo (32:14)
Yeah.

Shannon (32:15)
And it is, it is. Okay, so they start her on, they put her on all these monitors, the beeping, they turn the beeping off, which is also beautiful. You can opt, if you want the beeping, you can have the beeping. didn't, it was, you know, we could see it, but it just wasn't beeping. They gave her, they put her, put them on morphine and they basically turn off.

Jojo (32:24)
Okay.

Shannon (32:37)
all of the like IV fluids, IV food, all the things and keep them comfortable. And they have ways of knowing like the heart rate, if the heart rate speeds up a little, that could indicate that they're feeling some pain. So they'll increase the morphine. It's just that she was just peaceful, so peaceful.

Jojo (32:45)
Yeah.

Shannon (33:00)
just laid there and she did her little shallow breathing for a couple more days. yeah, yeah, she died on the seventh. just fourth was when I got there at her group home and sent to the ER. So then the seventh is when she passed. But it gave...

Jojo (33:06)
it was a couple of days.

Shannon (33:19)
We were able to make phone calls. All of our family was able to come. We had some family come in from out of town, some friends of my mom's who hadn't necessarily been able to see her. And just, was a great time. And my dad and I both are social enough where we welcomed that. know some people wouldn't want that. But you're also in a place where, you can say that, no, we don't want to. We don't want you to come. And I have no, obviously, I have no issues saying that.

Jojo (33:44)
Yeah.

Shannon (33:48)
And in fact, one of my mom's best friends was there minutes before she passed and left. And I texted her and she was at her car. And I said, it's about to happen. And she said, I'm coming back. I said, no, don't. And she was fine with that. And also, it doesn't matter if she's not fine with that. Doesn't matter. But she was. But she was fine with it. But it's just, and I'm the heavy, obviously, in my, you know.

Jojo (34:01)
everyone their space. That's true. And it doesn't matter. We're not people pleasing.

You Forgot (34:03)
Yeah.

Shannon (34:13)
in this situation and I don't mind being and I think I have a way of being heavy without it feeling heavy. ⁓ But also it doesn't matter. You're in this to protect your loved ones and you know, just like you would protect your kids and you don't care if people hate you for it, like you just do. And so that's my very long-winded story. But I do think knowing about that guardianship was

Jojo (34:18)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

No,

Shannon (34:39)
huge deal and I think if your parent has Alzheimer's dementia you can get it. Like it's I've looked it up I've done a lot of research on it I've talked to attorneys about this and you can get it. It's just a process and it's a little costly but also I mean not knowing what's going on with your loved one and not having a voice that's worse.

Jojo (35:02)
It's frightening.

Shannon (35:04)
It was terrifying. And I think if my dad had been more involved in that process, I think he would have probably agreed that she needed it. But I think we would have fought harder for a bed in our county. ⁓ And we didn't know that we, well, I would have not, even if I hadn't known, I would have been fighting. my dad just, he didn't really know, didn't know what to ask, didn't know what.

Jojo (35:15)
Yeah, you didn't know.

Shannon (35:27)
what he, what legs he had to stand on, so to speak, and so he just didn't. But it was terrifying for my dad, terrifying. Yeah.

Jojo (35:35)
I bet, I bet.

Well, how have you been coping personally since your mom's passing and what's helped you move through this period?

Shannon (35:46)
Okay, well, I don't go to therapy. I probably need to. That's the million dollar answer, I think. I don't. I don't know, we travel, we love the lake house. I love to read, watch TV. I like all the things you guys like to cover. love listening to all your suggestions. Loving the Swiftian Scholar podcast. Thank you for that suggestion. my gosh, so much.

Jojo (36:01)
Bye.

It's life changing. I

Shannon (36:10)
I love it so

Jojo (36:11)
know.

Shannon (36:11)
much. But we also got a puppy. We covered that on our pre-recording. Yes. Again, we get puppies at the best moments. But when you're grieving, get a puppy that's crazy. Crazy. She's crazy. And I don't know. just think friends. surround myself with great, great people. And I have friends that are family.

You Forgot (36:15)
You

Jojo (36:15)
Yes,

as you do.

You Forgot (36:23)
Okay.

Shannon (36:37)
They're the best. yeah, so just life, think. Also, shout out to my daughter. She's in esthetician school and I'm getting $25 facials from her while she's in school.

Jojo (36:47)
Genius

you said I hear a lot of self-care going on and I love it ⁓ From like just a personal question, you know, cuz I'm not there yet with my mom But I always wonder when she does pass Am I gonna feel relieved sad? What am I like? What are you feeling right now? Okay

Shannon (36:51)
A lot of self care, yes, yes, I do a lot of that.

Yes, yes, and all of you above,

You Forgot (37:08)
Yeah.

Shannon (37:08)
all

of you above. Yes, there's a lot of relief, a lot of relief. And it's selfish relief and it's also selfless relief. Like my mom's not suffering anymore. And I know your mom, the stories about Gaga are amazing, very different from my mom. My mom was just miserable with her anxiety. Like she just felt like she was scared all the time and it was just.

Jojo (37:21)
Yep.

Shannon (37:32)
It was heartbreaking to watch it.

she's not suffering anymore and that's a relief too that this battle that she's fighting, that we all were fighting, that it's over. And that's just relief, just those words are relief too. But I think it's also, I get random bouts of sadness and I think that that's just a normal grief process.

Jojo (37:45)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon (38:02)
my relationships with, it feels like everyone have changed. And that's, know because of just where I am.

Jojo (38:09)
Well, you're just in a really tender spot still. It hasn't been that long.

Shannon (38:11)
Yeah, yeah,

no. And my kids were all like very, very, very close to her and they all have their own ways of coping and ways of dealing. And we talk about her a lot. We try to giggle about funny things she said. Actually at her funeral, I typed up, I've got a little visual right here. I typed up this cute little,

Jojo (38:35)
post.

Shannon (38:37)
dictionary, Paulaism dictionary. That is like all of her, the funny things she used to say. Okay, so like, let's see. It's not what you want that makes you so pretty. Like that was one of the things and I'll put a definition. The definition is you want something that is unattainable.

Jojo (38:41)
adorable.

You Forgot (38:41)
Look

at your mom.

Jojo (38:45)
Can you give us an example?

Shannon (38:59)
and have an attitude about it, you're acting a little spoiled. It's not what you want that makes you so pretty. So, ⁓ coming out to eat grass, if something's coming out to eat grass, when something has a hole in it, like if your sock has a hole in it, your toe might be coming out to eat grass. And then like, yeet yet? She used to say yeet yet? Have you eaten yet? Yeah.

Jojo (39:07)
Love that.

Hahaha!

Like eat ya? Yeah, yeah.

Eat ya.

Shannon (39:27)
One

of Amy's favorites, again, back to Amy, Circle of Amy. Amy's my best friend to catch you up, and one of Sue's friends, and that's how we got together on this podcast, was through Amy. Back to Amy. One of her favorites is when we were younger, she would load us up and take us to garage sales, and we were always so embarrassed, you know, so embarrassed, we're going to garage sales. And so she coined the phrase, le garage sale. So we go, le garage sale. So it made it sound fancy.

Jojo (39:38)
Yep. Yep. Always.

right.

You Forgot (39:52)
Hahaha

Jojo (39:55)
It's French. I love that.

Shannon (39:56)
But

my mom was always so funny and so fun and that's what I wanted. So we passed these out. I made these. We passed them out at her funeral. then just memories that we have, cute memories that we have of her. We try to remember that. ⁓

Jojo (40:14)
Have you seen

any signs from her since her passing?

Shannon (40:17)
Well, okay, funny you should mention that. I have this weird sensation that I've only told a couple of people that I know it's gonna sound so strange, but I occasionally feel like I can feel her touching my back. Like just exactly where she would touch me, exactly the pressure, like right on my back.

Jojo (40:26)
Nope, I'm into olives.

Yeah, I believe you.

Now I get it,

because energy, you know, we're all made of energy and energy is neither created nor destroyed. So even though her physical body isn't here, her energy is still here. And I believe that she's with you for sure.

Shannon (40:52)
And it's not at

times where I'm like, I'm so sad. No, it's like I'm brushing my teeth.

Jojo (40:57)
Yeah, she's like, hey girl, I'm still here.

Shannon (40:59)
I know,

and it's, I mean, it's just a sensation that's just like, it's comforting. Yeah. Yeah.

Jojo (41:04)
It's comforting because that's what moms do.

I love that and thank you for sharing that. I love that. Okay, so finally for those of listening who may be in a similar situation right now, i.e. me, what guidance or reassurance would you want to offer them?

Shannon (41:08)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Gosh, guidance and reassurance. I don't know, I had to take some notes, I think from the beginning, we talked about this on the other podcast, but I think one of the things that I did well is navigating my dad in the midst of this, and I'm also gonna throw this out there. My brother lives near also and has

not been involved. He probably will not be listening to this and I tried really hard to not say that in the last one, but navigating that also. sometimes my dad and I have had very different opinions. And I do feel like sometimes I've been right, sometimes he's been right. So I think it's good to have two or more people involved. It's hard to be the only one. Sue, I know you were the only one and I...

Jojo (41:54)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Shannon (42:10)
can't imagine. But it's also very frustrating to be the backseat person.

Jojo (42:12)
can either.

You Forgot (42:17)
Yeah, wonder,

as you're talking, I'm thinking at least I didn't have to deal with any pushback or different opinions when I really felt like I was right. I could just go ahead and make those decisions. But if you have someone that's, you know, maybe thinking in an opposite way, that would be just another element of hardship dealing with this.

Shannon (42:38)
Yeah.

Yeah, and I think throughout the entire process of putting mom in memory care, I was ready way before my dad. Like it was just, it felt like up to the point where, like when she died in February, those last few decisions, I think up to that point, my dad and I disagreed about everything. And then when it came time, do we send her in the ambulance? We both were like, yes.

There wasn't a lot of disagreement at that point. So I think when it's really important, it seemed with my dad and me that when it was really important, we agreed. And we really listened to each other when it was important. When it was, you I mean, there were a lot of important things that happened, obviously, because I shared a lot of that. I think along the way, like which facility

Jojo (43:23)
That's

Shannon (43:32)
which, you know, a lot of that was just his decision. And I did disagree with him a lot, a lot, a lot, a but I didn't verbalize it. I didn't verbalize it, because it doesn't matter. It's his decision. And I just ultimately had to make the decision in my soul that like, I'm just going to respect his decision and respect him as her husband, not necessarily my dad, but as her husband. And that's a very different...

Jojo (43:38)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Shannon (44:02)
role to put myself in. Like I'm his daughter, but I'm needing to support him as her husband. And even if I feel like he's wrong, he's doing it out of love. So I can't just be all the time like, dad, this is not the right decision, dad, dad, dad, dad, dad, because that's not helpful either. So he is doing the best he can and he is a wonderful man and he would never make a bad decision on purpose.

Jojo (44:21)
Right, he's doing the best he can.

Shannon (44:28)
And so I think me as the daughter, I had to always be in that place where my job at this point is for sure to support my mom, but really to support my dad and see him for the wonderful man he is. He is, he's wonderful. And he just has an approach to life that's different from how my mom I felt like would want it, but he still loves her and doing it out of love. it's so, and again,

Jojo (44:52)
That's a really good

piece of advice for those listening out there that it's so hard, but like, you have to just let him decide. And that's the best way you can support him.

Shannon (45:01)
And I

think defining your role is also important. Like I had to really consciously like, okay, this isn't what I would want from my mom, I'm supporting him as her husband. so that's a different role. It's a very different role. And there were a couple of times where I was like, I strongly disagree and here's why. And he's good about listening to me, but ultimately,

Jojo (45:18)
totally different.

Shannon (45:25)
His version of listening to me is usually like, yeah, you're right, then does his own thing. ⁓ Yes, good point. Yes, Shannon, good point. But I think also I've heard a lot of people ask a lot of questions about, I don't know, where they are with their loved one with Alzheimer's. I think a very important

Jojo (45:28)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Shannon (45:48)
detail throughout this that people, think, need to have always, always, always factor in the fact that this is a terminal illness. You have to consciously remember, tell yourself that, ultimately, like, I've got all the way through that story and I have had a lot of, I mean, I've contacted an attorney, I know I have a case, I know that there was some mistreatment, I know that I kind of want

Jojo (45:56)
Yes.

Shannon (46:15)
to write a letter to the director of the facility, heartfelt, dear, I'll change her name, Benifer.

Benifer, dear Benifer, from Shannon, love Shannon. Changed your name, yes, best. I just feel like once she dumped my mom, like she didn't know what all transpired and I feel like a heartfelt letter from me saying this is what happened after you dumped my mom might mean something, I don't know. Yeah, I really.

Jojo (46:30)
best.

I don't think that's a bad idea.

You Forgot (46:47)
No, going forward,

she might at least make sure the family knows what's happening, the patient's going. Yeah.

Shannon (46:53)
Yeah, or even just understand what she did.

Jojo (46:57)
And maybe she could correct that in the future. Like you might be saving another family by doing that. Dear Ben. Dearest.

Shannon (46:57)
What she did. Yeah. Yeah, dear Benifer. ⁓ Benifer. But I think ultimately, you know, I think I can look at that whole story and see all the things that happened that were wrong. But ultimately, my mom was dying. My mom was dying.

Anyway, if we had caught the pneumonia earlier and we got her on the antibiotics, would that have been better? Exactly, exactly. So, I mean, and that's tricky because, well, I'm not gonna just let her suffer from and die from pneumonia just sitting there. I'm gonna intervene if it's...

Jojo (47:35)
Right. Are you just delaying the inevitable?

Right.

Shannon (47:48)
to make her more comfortable. don't want her to suffer, but at the same time, like...

If they had caught it earlier and then the none, I don't know. I don't Yes, so, but I think you have to always go in with the mindset that this is a terminal illness. And I would say that to my dad at very like, when we're like, we don't know what to do, we don't know what to do moments, I would like, dad, she's dying. Like ultimately, she's dying. Like we have to put that on the table.

Jojo (47:58)
you know you could always play that if what if this and

Shannon (48:24)
and understand that for what it is. it's not like, it's not the same as, I don't know, I can't even think of anything else, but like, okay, maybe even cancer, like it's not, like if we don't do this treatment, we might, if we don't make the right decision about treatment plan, we could live or not live. This is not the same. It's not the same. It's making decisions knowing this is a terminal illness.

Jojo (48:43)
Yeah, it is not the same.

Shannon (48:49)
and making decisions that will be best for this moment to get through this moment to get through this moment. no, it's fine.

Jojo (48:58)
Okay, I didn't put this on the question sheet, but I'm

curious, what does Christmas look like this year for you?

Shannon (49:05)
Well, Christmas this year, well, we moved also. So after my mom passed, I got engaged, moved. Thank you.

Jojo (49:13)
Congratulations.

That's so pretty, pretty,

Shannon (49:17)
And thank

you. And got a puppy. Also my cat passed away the day of my mom's funeral. She got hit by a car. It was very traumatic. Yes, it was very traumatic. Yes. Which is part of why we got a puppy too, back too. All that. But anyway.

Jojo (49:26)
god, are you- NO!

You Forgot (49:37)
That puppy has a lot on his shoulders, her shoulders.

Shannon (49:39)
She, I know

she does and she is living up to it. So, wait, what was the question? Okay, Christmas. Well, we're, Christmas as normal. We've always loved Christmas. My oldest daughter is actually not gonna be able to come this year. She's engaged, she got engaged also right around the same time I got engaged. So she is gonna be with her fiance's family for Christmas, but we get her for Thanksgiving. So Thanksgiving we're doing up.

Jojo (49:45)
What does Christmas look like this year?

⁓

Shannon (50:04)
real big, we're gonna be combining with the Cradels, back to Amy, Circle of Amy. We're combining, that's the friends that have become family. I mean, they've always been, but, so we're doing all of our family, which is, you know, 27 people, and then all of their family, which, I mean, it's gonna be outrageous, but they have a huge house, we're gonna all go over there. So we're doing our Christmas jammies on Thanksgiving, because my oldest daughter will be here, and all the...

Jojo (50:23)
Love it.

Yeah.

Shannon (50:29)
Landry, Amy's daughter is a cousin. all the cousins will be together. Jeff's my fiance, his girls are gonna be there. So we're just kind of doing that. We'll still do a huge Christmas. So my dad can't decide. This is so my dad. He might go water ski in Costa Rica for Christmas. Or he might be here. He is in his late 70s.

Jojo (50:43)
Okay.

as you do when you're in your 80s.

Yeah,

Shannon (50:55)
Yes. Well, he just

Jojo (50:56)
okay, okay.

Shannon (50:57)
got back from Italy, skied Italy. Yeah. So, yeah. And I think you had a question come in, like something about holidays with something. like, I told my dad, no pressure, do what you like, live, go live. I love it. I'm so proud. It's just a day. It's just a day. It's just a day. I mean, our Christmas is, you know.

Jojo (50:59)
Okay. So guess the leg is okay.

You Forgot (51:00)
Well, I was gonna ask how he was doing,

but dang.

Jojo (51:07)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's just a day. Man, that's so true.

Shannon (51:21)
the normal stockings, Christmas gifts, but my dad's always welcome. Everybody's always welcome. Like the kids come if you can, if you, I'm get it. My oldest daughter's gonna go to her fiance's. It's great. Go live. Like I just love it. I love it. So we're just doing normal. We'll be here. We are almost always just camped out because we want the kids to come, whoever can come. So yeah, just normal. My mom.

Jojo (51:31)
Yeah, it's Yeah.

Shannon (51:45)
was around last Christmas and we all wait the last couple of Christmases we've kind of treated like this could be Nana's last Christmas and but I for a couple of years I've tried to do a sentimental gift for my kids that is like Nana related

not vases, but like cute little vessels that I have rounded up at antique stores and thrift stores, because that would be so my mom, but I'm going to put her ashes in there and give that as one of their gifts. Yeah. And then, I did a homemade cookbook for them one year that was handwritten recipes from all the family, all the family members that my mom's handwriting was in there, but it was kind of a

Jojo (52:12)
I love that.

Shannon (52:27)
It was a few years ago, but it's something sentimental. think I got my mom's button jar and made some little something out of it last year. I don't really remember, but something sentimental every year. So, and they, you know, miss her dearly and so we just keep her memory alive. Yeah. Yeah.

Jojo (52:30)
I love that.

Yeah, that's right. That's what it's all about. Well,

listen, Shannon, I can't thank you enough for coming on again. When you agreed to do it, I was on cloud nine because I mean, not only do we love talking to you, but the information that you shared could really be life-changing for some people. Like, especially me, I'm gonna look into this guardianship thing, because we don't have guardianship over my mom. I don't know if we have a DNR printed out. So just those practical things.

Shannon (53:06)
Yeah. Another

thing too I wanted to do is to use your ombudsman. ⁓

Jojo (53:14)
Okay,

I saw that in your notes and I had to Google, well, what is that?

Shannon (53:17)
Okay, so an ombudsman is basically like a CASA worker for geriatric patients, people. So you can go get yourself an ombudsman and they basically like, they were my liaison between, this okay? Like here's what happened. My mom, the stitches are the staples. Is this okay? No, no, it's not okay. I'm going up there and I'm gonna try to get that video footage. See, okay.

Jojo (53:25)
Okay.

Is this a free

service? Okay.

Shannon (53:46)
Yes,

yes. And you just can Google it. It's Texas on Budsman something. I don't know, but you can Google it. shout out to my, what I do. I am a professional organizer and I am, my emphasis is end of life. And so I, I can, can help with this. I'm kind of trying to be semi-retired and work less. And so I,

Jojo (54:10)
Yeah.

Shannon (54:11)
I'm careful with taking new clients. I have a few just regular clients that I, that's what I'm doing. Like one of my clients is in his eighties and he's, when his wife passed in 21, she had all these oil and gas mineral rights that he doesn't know anything about. So I'm helping him track down oil and gas mineral rights all over the United States that are for him now, but.

Jojo (54:33)
amazing.

Shannon (54:35)
He doesn't know how to do that. He doesn't know how to get them put in his name. So that's all part of this end of life. Now does he want to sell them? So it's a lot of things. I've got another client that's just inherited a bunch of heirlooms from her parents and doesn't have any room for them. What do I do with them? How do I display them? How do I sell them? How do I organize my life? What do I do? ⁓

Jojo (55:00)
This is such

an amazing service.

Shannon (55:02)
Yeah, and then I have one that's real into genealogy that like helping track that down, organize that pictures and chronological pictures. it's just, mean, you know, shout out to the knockbox. I have a code with them too. want you guys use their code. But yeah, we, I'm a strong proponent and the knockbox and a lot of my clients really like their electronic feature.

Jojo (55:25)
Yes.

Shannon (55:26)
But

again, even with the electronic feature, what's the lock on your phone? How do you get into your phone? Where's the code to your phone? Where are the bodies buried? We have to know. So just that whole process. But yeah, the ombudsman was a huge feature for us in that whole process. Also, I wanted to shout out, you guys use RubyCare?

You Forgot (55:30)
Yes.

Jojo (55:30)
You've got to that written down.

You Forgot (55:35)
Hahaha

Jojo (55:50)
Yes.

Shannon (55:51)
or

y'all are, they're ⁓ friend of the pod, thank you. I did use them. I will say that one of the things I ran into, they're fantastic. And the girl I talked to was truly amazing. But if you've done any work yourself, if you've gone in and toured facilities yourself, then they can't contact those facilities.

Jojo (55:54)
They're a friend of the pod.

Shannon (56:13)
But that's, and she was very helpful, very thankful. I mean, she was going to hit the ground running through Christmas, but I was like, I've already been to all of these. She was like, then I can't go to those.

Jojo (56:14)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Shannon (56:24)
they're a great service. but just that's a little detail that I think is helpful to know that.

Jojo (56:30)
Yeah, there are service I guess you need to use when you've done zero. Yeah.

Shannon (56:34)
Yes, or just like

that might be a great first phone call. They're great. They are so great.

Jojo (56:38)
Yeah.

listen, Shannon, thank you so much. ⁓ This is already turning out to be one of my favorite episodes.

Shannon (56:41)
Yeah!

Aww.

Well, I did all that talking. But yeah, I hope some of that's helpful. I love you guys. Love this podcast so much. And thank you for all your great suggestions on books and shows and love the Bus Barn stories and the Gaga stories. They're so great.

You Forgot (57:03)
I mean, Barns been a highlight in my life. I love the little kids story.

Jojo (57:03)
Well, I'm sure we'll have more coming up.

Shannon (57:05)
Yes, I love it

too. They're so precious. And I love how much joy you get from it, Joanna.

Jojo (57:12)
Okay.

Yeah, I do. They're just so cute and sweet. And I have more stories to come. But listen, stay in touch with us. Don't be a stranger. And we want to see like how your story unfolds. Okay. Love you.

Shannon (57:20)
Okay, good.

Okay. Okay.

Okay, sounds great. Love you guys. Okay,

You Forgot (57:28)
Thanks, Lauren. Thanks.

Shannon (57:30)
bye.

Thank